Great Googly Moogly

[akirlu]

Another Tun, successfully weathered, brought the disturbing smoffish rumor that Seattle will definitely be launching a bid for the 2011 Worldcon. Waugh! Arrrrgh! And, furthermore, Aiiiiiiiii!

Okay, in case anyone is unclear on the inclination of my sentiments, let me just explicitly say that this sounds like a rilly bad idea. Pragmatics are key. Merely wanting a Worldcon in your city because it hasn't had one in a long time is not a good enough reason to bid for one. A committee needs to have big-con experience, competence, national smof connections, and enough emotional distance to take a hard look at their facilities & resources and make their decisions accordingly, in order to field a bid that doesn't threaten the physical and emotional health of the fans who eventually make the thing fly. I deeply suspect that Seattle has none of those, really. And you know, I watched people giving themselves ulcers trying to salvage NolaCon II. I'd rather not have to bear witness to that sort of thing again.

Comments

May I have a Lesser Googly Moogly, please?

[barondave.livejournal.com]

One of the things I've always admired about Mpls fandom is that we have the talent and experience to run a Worldcon, and choose not to.

Re: May I have a Lesser Googly Moogly, please?

[davidschroth.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure that Mpls fandom has the talent and experience to run a Worldcon. At one time, maybe.

This makes the decision to concentrate on the strengths of mpls fandom (i.e., throwing parties) very wise.

Re: May I have a Lesser Googly Moogly, please?

[mjlayman.livejournal.com]

Besides, throwing parties is more fun than throwing a Worldcon.

[thirdworld.livejournal.com]

Didn't Seattle prove themselves somewhat with last year's NASFiC? Granted they are not remotely as experienced or solid a site as Boston, LA, Chicago, etc, but then who is? Somehow Worldcons have to move to other cities outside of the usual suspects. Yes they need help, but unlike Nolacon the Seattle fans already know this and plan to make use of as many existing skilled volunteers as they can. I'll probably help too, since I'm moving to Portland soon (3-hr drive away) -- well, if I'm still there then as it is still a long way off. Aside from that they have local fans involved on Worldcon staff and I understand they have a lot of support from others in the wider region. Seems like a good outsider bid to me. Am I missing something?

[akirlu.livejournal.com]

Didn't Seattle prove themselves somewhat with last year's NASFiC?

Sure, but not in their favor. The only reason their facilities were not disastrously inadequate was because attendance was much lighter than they had hoped for or planned. It's precisely this willingness to go ahead with what they can get rather than what they need that I consider such a very bad sign in the local Worldcon aspirants.

Somehow Worldcons have to move to other cities outside of the usual suspects.

Why?

Aside from that they have local fans involved on Worldcon staff

Anybody besides Bobby DuFault?

they have a lot of support from others in the wider region

Not helpful if you mean Northwest fandom, which is historically insular and not really plugged into the national smof culture.

[thirdworld.livejournal.com]

Sure, but not in their favor. The only reason their facilities were not disastrously inadequate was because attendance was much lighter than they had hoped for or planned. It's precisely this willingness to go ahead with what they can get rather than what they need that I consider such a very bad sign in the local Worldcon aspirants.

Ah, I see. I'll be sure to ask around. Thanks for the info. I'll be sure to consider that.

Somehow Worldcons have to move to other cities outside of the usual suspects.
Why?

I believe in both the "world" in Worldcon and also in the Worldcon belonging to everyone. I like the idea of Worldcons going to new places and helping to expose locals to the whole fannish scene and Worldcons in general.

Anybody besides Bobby DuFault?

At Noreascon Four I sat at a breakfast table with three people from the NASFiC staff who were also on Worldcon staff. Yes, Bobbie was one of the three. Not sure how many there were in total. I'm sure they'll need more, but they do have some.

Not helpful if you mean Northwest fandom, which is historically insular and not really plugged into the national smof culture.

The support I know of comes from experienced individuals, not groups. Some Portland fans are likely to help, going by chats I had at Smofcon. As for the Bay area, I have no idea. I know they will get help from a couple of individuals there that I know.

Thanks for answering. I'll be sure to look into all this in more detail and to ask around a bit. I still like the idea of a Seattle Worldcon bid. The city is a great Worldcon city from the perspective of tourism and active fandom. We will have to see how many more of them get more involved with Worldcons between now and then. And I'd like to see their approach of listening to advice continue.

[saphyre-blue.livejournal.com]

If we only have the Worldcons in the "usual" suspects why call it Worldcon and why should the rest of the World bother. I am sure there are people from both schools of thought but personally if I am going to spend the money I would also like to go to other areas not just the usual suspects.

It would be possible to have a Seattle Worldcon that would be as bad as the worst ones that have happened but since I guess I will be heading up the bid and chairing the con if we win I will work very hard to get people from all over with all the necessary knowledge to join us to make it a successful event instead of a failure.

I too believe in the "World" of Worldcon and I think it should belong to everyone not just a special few. Seattle may not have TONS of Worldcon organizers but the PNW does have a share.

One last thought - Seattle may have been insular in the past and some of it may still be now but if we restrict who can have a Worldcon to just those few areas (Chicago, California, Boston etc...) then they too will become insular in their own way. It is the same as saying they are the only ones that can do it right.

[shelleybear.livejournal.com]

The alternative is a worldcon that bounces between a few cities and that's it.
Also, size and experience don't always matter. There have been catastrophes involving experienced concom and staff as well as relatively green committees doing a good job.

[akirlu.livejournal.com]

The alternative is a worldcon that bounces between a few cities and that's it.

If there's a choice to be made between limiting Worldcon to a few regular cycling committees, and the actinic burnout phenomenon associated with salvaging a dubious committees, I see nothing wrong with a limited slate of Worldcon capable cities. Or, for that matter, with re-thinking the size and scope of Worldcon.

There have been catastrophes involving experienced concom and staff as well as relatively green committees doing a good job.

Yes but when what's at risk is the emotional and physical well-being of people I care about, I'd rather go with the safer bet.

[shelleybear.livejournal.com]

Save money.
Scrap bid parties.
Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles
Year, after year after year (well, except for the occassional furriner bid).

[sfrose.livejournal.com]

If there's a choice to be made between limiting Worldcon to a few regular cycling committees, and the actinic burnout phenomenon associated with salvaging a dubious committees, I see nothing wrong with a limited slate of Worldcon capable cities. Or, for that matter, with re-thinking the size and scope of Worldcon.

And just how long do you think it will take before those recycled committees have major burnout?

A few "short cycles" in a row, and you've just reduced the number of capable cities without helping to encourage new staff elsewhere.

[kate-schaefer.livejournal.com]

Who else is bidding? Is anyone else bidding yet? (Kate Googles.) Ah: there are two other bids: Washington, D.C., and Chernobyl/Minneapolis in '73. Okay, there's one other bid.

We went to Alaska during the NASFiC. It worked very well for us, and I can recommend it wholeheartedly as a strategy for anyone else who wants to avoid being here if a worldcon should hit Seattle.

[thirdworld.livejournal.com]

No, Seattle first checked with DC and DC have changed their dates to 2012 for various reasons, including their facility's construction only being finished in 2010. Seattle want 2011 as it is the 50th anniversary of their last Worldcon.

[marykaykare.livejournal.com]

Would you like me to have a talk with these prospective bidders? Do you think they'd listen to a dose of unpleasant reality?

MKK

[akirlu.livejournal.com]

Frankly, I doubt it would do any good. Bobbie and a bunch of other folks Really Want This. I give Bobbie full marks for listening to advice and opinions and going out and seeking experience and connections to make this happen, but about the ultimate goal I would be really surprised if she were moveable at all. And maybe 2011 is far enough in the future that the tools can be built and the resources will gel, but what worries me is that I have no reason to believe that if they *don't* gel, anybody will be clear-eyed enough to call no-go.

[saphyre-blue.livejournal.com]

You could volunteer to be one of my advisors - everyone needs a good devils advocate.

[thirdworld.livejournal.com]

I plan to talk to Bobbie. I will ask all the hard questions I hear from anyone at all. And she will have to have answers come smofcon time, as the senior smofs will have plenty. I think she will ensure that she can answer them all.

[marykaykare.livejournal.com]

Oh, I wasn't talking about asking questions. I was talking about sharing my experiences in the upper echelons of a worldcon comittee. Not good ones I'm afraid.

MKK

[akirlu.livejournal.com]

Yes, Bobbie talks a good line. And I do not discount her good will or willingness to listen to outside input. That's worth a great deal. But. When push came to shove, the faces I was seeing at the NASFiC planning meeting were still all local. And Bobbie is only one person, and has decades worth of ingrained Not Invented Here Northwest fan culture to overcome. Intending to have a more networked and hardnosed committee is fine, but not nearly as good as actually having one.

[daveon.livejournal.com]

Gosh. Ummm...

So, I thought UK fandom was bad enough about Eastercons. I didn't realise there was a next scale up :(

...rushes off to see if there is time to change plans to move...

[akirlu.livejournal.com]

Oh, don't be an ass. It isn't as if you can't be local and not be involved with any of the people who run the local big convention. Most of the fannish folks you know or have met in Seattle are not really socially connected in any way to the Worldcon aspirants, having tried to help the Norwescon crew in years past and been repeatedly rebuffed, they tend to keep their own counsel over here in the beer-drinking, smack-talking, fanzine-and-sercon section.

[daveon.livejournal.com]

Ah come on, you know when I'm kidding :)

[shikzoid.livejournal.com]

Seattle actually does have adequate facilities now. There's been an eruption of very good hotels near the convention center in the last four years and the center itself has been greatly expanded.

I just don't think this group can pull it off. Buy me a beer sometime and I'll tell you about it.

[akirlu.livejournal.com]

I'm skeptical on the facilities. I think the convention center itself is probably fine, though someone who knows the square footage needs of a Worldcon-sized dealer's room and artshow plus general display area would need to vet that. But I don't see a good way to do a Worldcon here without using the Sheraton as the primary convention hotel, and unless the Sheraton elevator situation has changed -- a lot -- or they have got corkage-waiverable suites somewhere other than the very top of the hotel -- then I think you're looking at a flow-management problem like that of the '97 Westercon, only cubed and squared due to much, much larger numbers.